When Selling Yourself Gives You the Ick: Relational Marketing, Pricing & Getting Paid
Welcome to the first episode of the CONSCIOUS MARKETING Podcast with Tristan Katz, a podcast for people who want to market their work with integrity in a world that often teaches us to do the opposite.
This episode is a recording from the live, monthly Conscious Marketing Club in which we explored a question Tristan hears all the time: “How do I market myself when selling myself feels gross?”
For many entrepreneurs and service providers, marketing can bring up discomfort, vulnerability, urgency, and overwhelm. We know we need to tell people what we’re doing. We know we need to be findable. We know we need to get paid. And also, the dominant marketing world often teaches us to use pressure, fake scarcity, polished performance, and pain-point manipulation to get people to buy.
This conversation offers another way.
In this episode, Tristan explores:
How capitalism teaches us to equate marketing with money, transaction, and return on investment
Why getting paid for your work matters—and why that doesn’t mean your marketing has to become extractive
The difference between transactional marketing and relational marketing
Why “selling yourself” feels especially vulnerable when your work is personal, relational, creative, healing, or care-based
How to help people discern whether your work is right for them
Why trust is built over time, not manufactured through urgency
How repetition supports visibility, recognition, and relationship-building
Why pricing is not about “charging your worth”
How free content, newsletters, podcasts, and community spaces can function as meaningful entry points into your work
Key takeaways
→ Marketing is not only about selling. It is also about visibility, education, relationship-building, trust, service, and helping people understand who you are, what you do, and whether your work is right for them.
→ Transaction is not the enemy. You deserve to get paid for your labor. Extraction is the problem.
→ Relational marketing asks a different question. Instead of “How do I get people to buy?” we can ask, “How do I help people make informed, consensual decisions about whether my work is right for them?”
→ Metrics can offer useful information, but they are not the whole story. One email reply, one person saying “thank you for this,” one conversation sparked by your content—these things matter.
→ Pricing is not about reducing your worth to a number. Your humanity is not for sale. Pricing is about business modeling, sustainability, access, capacity, and finding structures that help you live while serving others.
→ You are allowed to repeat yourself. Repetition is not redundancy. Repetition builds trust.
Resources mentioned
Conscious Marketing Club → LEARN MORE
A free monthly gathering for values-rooted entrepreneurs, educators, facilitators, healers, creatives, and service providers exploring marketing, business, visibility, content, and showing up with integrity.
Free marketing resources from Tristan Katz → LEARN MORE
Explore workbooks, guides, and resources on marketing ecosystems, content strategy, conscious marketing, and creating more sustainable visibility.
Business Modeling + Pricing for Equity with Brooke Monaghan → LEARN MORE
A deeper exploration of offers, pricing, accessibility, sustainability, sliding scale structures, and building business models that support both your clients and your capacity.
Episode themes and keywords
Conscious marketing, relational marketing, selling without feeling salesy, pricing your work, values-based business, trauma-informed marketing, anti-oppressive marketing, getting paid as a service provider, marketing without manipulation, authentic visibility, sustainable visibility, content marketing, business modeling, trust-building, marketing for healers, marketing for therapists, marketing for facilitators, marketing for yoga teachers, marketing for creatives, marketing with integrity.
TRANSCRIPT
When Selling Yourself Gives You the Ick: Relational Marketing, Pricing & Getting Paid
CONSCIOUS MARKETING with Tristan Katz
Transcript lightly edited from auto-generated captions for readability, flow, and web publishing. Nonessential timestamp clutter has been removed; approximate timestamps are included by section.
#[00:00] Welcome, access notes, and introductions
Tristan Katz:
Okay, everything is happening. More people will probably join us. Please feel free to make yourselves comfortable. If you've been here before, you already know, but if this is your first time at Conscious Marketing Club—you can show up however you want in this space. On camera, off-camera, folding laundry. Horizontal on the couch, in the bed, off, whatever you need to do. To be able to, sit back and listen. There's nothing you have to do with the information you hear today. You can just absorb it and take it in. Okay, let me share my slides, and I'll say a little bit more about what today is going to look like. As more people join us. Okay, here we go. Can you see my screen okay? Those of you who are on camera and can give me a thumbs up? Great, thank you, awesome.
Cool. Okay. Hi. If we don't know each other, my name is Tristan Katz, I use they and sometimes he pronouns. And I've been hosting this space for a little over maybe a year now, in kind of different iterations, and it feels very clear on what it wants to be now, which is a chance for me to talk about whatever I want to! For 20 to 30 minutes, because it turns out this is one of my special interests, and I could nerd out about marketing. For a really long time, which is why I made it my job. And so, I'm going to talk for 20-20, 30 minutes with these. It could be less. And every month I bring a different theme now. And so, I'm usually just kind of, feeling into what's going on with clients, with conversations I'm having.
In the ether, and now, the thing that I wanted to bring in was when selling yourself gives you the ick. I keep hearing from people that they're coming to me with questions about marketing because they need to get paid for their work. And so we need to make our work together about that end goal. Which is not something I've spent a lot of time focusing on, because I've spent the last several months yelling on the internet about how marketing isn't about selling. Because I don't want us to go into our marketing thinking about that transaction. And that transaction is, a life-or-death type situation, and so I don't want to bypass that. And I want to talk about how we can make it feel less icky and less transactional.
So for those of you who are new, we usually go through, this is what to expect. I'm going to talk. Again, you can listen with your camera on or off. I am going to open up the chat box in a minute, with a prompt? Just to hear from you a little bit about how you are in coming into the space and anything relevant. And then I'm going to talk about these slides. If there are any questions that come up while I'm talking, please raise your actual hand, raise your Zoom hand put your question in the chat box, and I'll be paying attention, etc. And if you don't have any questions, that's fine. And then after I'm done talking with these slides, I'll open it up. And if there's questions about what I'm speaking to today, great.
If there's questions about anything I haven't talked about today. Great! Only those who unmute and speak into the space will be captured in the recording, for those who are, at all interested in, privacy. And if you have any other access needs, I want to know. I believe the captions are going. Yes? Can you see captions while I'm talking? Anybody? No. Let me just make sure that those are going. Yeah you'd think that Zoom. Okay, I have an idea. Hold on. You'd think that Zoom gets easier. I think we have to self because I just. I have them now that I went down on my screen, it's the bottom. To turn them on. And there's the more dot dot, Okay, okay. As long as they're available, and you all know how to access them, if that's helpful, that's all that's—most important.
Okay. Anybody needs anything, the chat box is open. Cool. Thank you. Thank you to those of you who are participating in the chat. And with emojis, because that helps. And on that note, let's—I want to hear from you in the chat box. Those of you who are available to typing. Or are interested in sharing. If you could introduce yourself to each other with your name, your pronouns. Maybe where you're located? If you want to share anything about your work in the world? I know these are a lot of prompts, and I'm going to repeat them again, and I'm also going to type them into the chat box. So your name, your pronouns, where you're located. Anything about your work in the world, And any questions or, struggles you're having now that you just want to name regarding marketing or your business? I know that's a lot.
We'll take a few minutes. Name. Pronouns. Location. Work. Question. Slash. Challenges. I think that's what I said. Yeah. So let's just take a minute or so, yeah, and if you're just coming in and you want to say where you're located and what you do, that's totally fine, too. I want to hear who's here. I know some of you. And some of you I've seen before. But some of you I don't know. And also, I want you all to know that there are other people in the space. Maybe doing similar work. Great. Thanks, everybody.
Yeah, again, if there's no question on the top of your mind, or no challenge that you can think of specifically? That's totally fine. Thank you for those who are joining in the chat box. Awesome. Cool. Yeah, and if you want to take a minute to look through those, please do. Cool. Thank you, everyone, for taking a few minutes. To kind of locate yourself. If anybody's still typing, please feel free to. So far, the only challenges slash questions. Are. I see shifting offers and marketing, and how to speak the language of the people we're trying to reach. I see Resistance to marketing, but recognizing that someone's at a point where they need to leap into this with grace. I think that's a beautiful way to put it. Cool. Great. Thanks for those of you who are sharing.
And yeah, people want to move through their marketing without the ick. Yep, I hear you. This is what I hear the most, is, this feels gross. Help me. So that's the topic of today. Great. If you're still typing, please feel free to. And I'm going to move us forward. And if you need to resource yourself with a beverage, coffee, tea, dog whatever you need to do. Again, if any questions come up. You can raise your actual hand if you're on camera, your Zoom hand, or you can type it in the chat box. Talk for a bit.
#[08:13] We have to tell people what we’re doing
Tristan Katz:
Not that I haven't already been. Okay, so, here's the thing. We have to tell people. What we're doing, in order for them to know that we're doing it. I say that and laugh, Because I feel like that's the basic premise of marketing, that we often don't recognize, because capitalism equates marketing with money, transaction. Return on investment, the most efficient strategy so you can make the most money in the least period of time. And I'm all for that. Actually, I'm actually all for every single one of us. Thriving, and having space to, lay in our backyards, or sit in water, or read a book on the couch and sleep, or whatever it is. That's what I'm here for, actually.
I'm here for supporting people who want to make a meaningful contribution to the world while getting paid for it, so they can survive and also do these other things that nourish them. That is what my goal is in marketing. So we have to tell people what we're doing. Otherwise, they literally will not know. And the thing is about people's attention spans at this point in time, prior to even this moment, is that they're crap., we are. As a human species, and I will speak specifically where I'm familiar with the human species, which is in the so-called United States, we're overwhelmed. Scared. Grieving. Angry, unsafe? And our brains are being rewired by algorithms by endless scrolling. By endless streaming.
And so it's really important to recognize that if we're going to reach people and tell them what we do, We have to do it in a way that understands their human experience Which means it's not, I don't care which way we look at it. It's, yes, we need to get paid. And we cannot afford to turn the people we're trying to reach? To numbers. Which means a big part of making marketing less icky is releasing any investment or attack to the number. I'm not saying it's not a focal point. I'm not saying it's a part of the equation, I'm not saying it's maybe the ultimate goal is to get paid. And This is a multiple. This is a both-and. And we're going to talk about it some more. So And let's be real, it's not just, capitalism! Out there.
It's like every time we open our phones. And we open a social media app. There is, an ether. Of manipulation for profit. And so it makes sense that all of this starts to feel really, really gross. But the thing is, is that people paying us for our work isn't the problem. Needing income is not the problem. Not the problem. I mean, largely speaking, yes. We could talk about that in another container transactions aren't the problem. It's the part where we have, gotten confused about how to do relationship while also doing transactions. Capitalism and white supremacy culture, and the list goes on, have enforced and reinforced this narrative that transactions are inherently extractive. But that is not true.
Not when we're choosing how we work and how we navigate relationships So the problem isn't the transaction, it's not that we need to get paid for our work, it's when we're collapsing the conversation. Into just transactions. So, To me, this is great news, and we're going to talk about it more. Obviously. Because the great news is, if only two people say, I don't know, click a link in your email newsletter. Or, like your post. On social media. Great news! Two people clicked that link and liked your post. That's good information. That's wonderful, actually. So rather than looking at it, what the fuck am I doing wrong? My email open rate is going down. People aren't clicking my links anymore. Or, wow, why isn't anybody engaging with this social content?
It's, I want us to look at the people who are. Those relationships matter. And we can learn and take in information about how to reach more people more effectively, But I want us to remember that it's not about the numbers. It's, it's not about the numbers, let it go. While also focusing on getting paid, which is about numbers, and so I understand this is where we keep talking about it.
#[14:05] Transactional marketing and the problem with numbers
Tristan Katz:
Okay, I want to tease this, or unpack this a little bit more, and then I'll pause and check in. So transactional marketing, by the way, is the name of most marketing conversations That is what informs almost anything out there on the internet that's, let's talk about how to get you money in your work. It's everywhere. It's hard to tease apart sometimes, though, because it's sneaky. And it teaches us to focus on one question. How do I get people to buy? How do I get people to pay me? So what this looks like is we're focusing, literally, all of our attention on the transaction. On the sale. Often this looks, because we're coming from a nervous system embodied experience in which surviving financially is life or death. This inherently is going to bring up, urgency.
And it means when we look at it this way, we're, not actually attuning to the audience. We're probably more likely to pathologize and think that we can somehow fix their needs. As if we can meet their needs, as if we can, serve their pain points. These are all some of the things, and I'm, I'm not saying we can't meet their needs, but I want to be really clear about what needs I can meet. That doesn't mean I get to say, you're struggling, and everything is so hard, and, I don't know. Here are maybe 3 things you struggling with, and, I can fix all of these. That's not what I'm saying. And to me, when we approach marketing from the transactional lens, we're also just, focused on attention. Getting attention, maintaining attention, literally, views time watching engaging.
Whether or not you ever actually interact. This means, inherently, we will be more likely to perform. And seek perfection, whatever that means. Over just, showing up in our full, messy, confused natural humanness. And by the way, the whole, curated, polished social media presence thing is so done., we know now when someone's trying to sell us something, or when they're phoning it in, And we become much more discerning, I would hope. About, what people are putting on, what kind of shows people are putting on. I know this isn't exclusively the case because I immediately think of someone like And no shade, but also shade.
Therapy Jeff., dude's still got 1.4 million followers, and you might not be aware, but he really, stepped in it recently, and so I'm just really thinking about how easy it is to buy, quote unquote, into what we're being shown. And not recognize. That there's a lot of other stuff going on here that maybe isn't. Social trust is confusing So anytime I'm I, see someone who—it lands in my body as some sort of a performance, and we can unpack that, because showing up on the internet is, kind of a performance period But I want us to release as much as we can, this idea that we need to show up perfectly. That takes us away from the humanness, and we're trying to reach other humans. And now, humans want more.
Humanness, especially now In the landscape of—the AI conversation. So, some of the ways we see this coming across is, again, thinking that success in our marketing has everything to do with numbers. Again, this is complicated. We also see this coming across as when we're, there's only 3 spots left, they're selling quickly, when, they're really not. We see this in the emphasis to focus on people's quote, pain points, or the things they're suffering or struggling with the most. Which is manipulative. We see this through polished, curated branding, scripting, everything to avoid discomfort. Or uncertainty, all of these things take us out of the, human-to-human process, the relational process.
And so, I'm going to break this down, and then I want to pause and check in with you all. I know I had said that a minute ago. Brooke Monaghan, who I know some of and I were having a conversation recently in response to the fact that I had spent months marketing, my last marketing workshop under the banner of Conscious Marketing. It's not about selling. And I was yelling at Brooke enthusiastically one day over coffee about how—very few people were really interested in attending the workshop. Which was great. It was a small group, it was lovely, I am not complaining. And I was curious about it. And I realized that my own marketing for that workshop was not effective. Because no matter how many times I repeated the message, it was the wrong message.
It is about selling. I can't tell you! That you're not going to make money, like, that's—no, that's not good, and that's not a good job. But I've been approaching this from a lens of, skipping a few steps So I'm trying to boil it down. And this is the thing that Brooke and I came across, which is we're now calling the four uncomfortable truths. You signed up.
#[20:07] Four uncomfortable truths about asking for money
Tristan Katz:
To ask people for money. If you're working for yourself, If you're creating a business. If you're a solopreneur, if you're an entrepreneur, and if you're a wellness professional of any kind, mental health, yoga, spiritual care, all of—those categories are basically entrepreneurs, I don't care how many paychecks from wherever you get You signed up to ask people for money. People now, more than maybe ever before in at least in my lifetime, and I'm 43, just to locate myself. Going to be 44 soon. People are careful with money now. In a really particular way. Which means that reaching them and helping them choose to spend their money with us? Is a really tricky process. It takes time.
It's not going to be, here's the flyer, And the first time somebody sees it, they immediately click buy Some of these things are so relational. That it happens over time. So, — all of these pieces of our internet presence are important, what does your website look like? What does your newsletter look like? What does your social look like? Where are you showing who you are and what you care about, and what informs your work, and — all of that, and — recognizing that no matter how much we show up, in different spaces. This is a really complicated, tender. Time-over-time process. And I recognize that being seen trying to make money off our work in the world can be very vulnerable.
Ask me how I know!, I was all here for marketing yoga teachers back when I first started my business. I was, yes, I am so behind marketing you, I will—I am here, I believe in your work, let's put you in more places let's put that quote in a thing. That quote was so good, I want to put that in front of more people. When it came to marketing my own work, to get paid for what I do, and not somebody else's work to get paid, it was so hard for me to figure out how to do it. Because it's really vulnerable. And I also, in that vulnerability, and in all of this confusing, it's about the transaction, Every, every save, every share. Matters all of this stuff. And all of these noises And then the vulnerability, it makes sense that we might overcomplicate it.
I want to make it more accessible for our overwhelm. For the nervous system experiences that we are inherently having, and that the people we're trying to reach are also happening. Okay, I have. Yeah, thank you for those of you who are participating in the chat box in any way. I have, 5 more slides, but I just want to check in. How's everybody doing? Any questions? Any needs? Cool. Okay, if that changes, you let me know. I'll go
#[23:45] This is not just a mindset issue
Tristan Katz:
Patricia? Yeah So, what I'm appreciating about what you're sharing now is like how important it is to actually shift the mindset of what does it mean to be offering our work and for me, just like that's the thing I always feel, I'm a fake by like telling people what I do in ways that like I don't necessarily conceive myself But then there's so much noise around, this is the formula, this is how you have to do it. So for me, it's just, okay, there's kind of like the work of the mindset, and then there is the work of understanding the tools. So Yes. Okay And I want to be very clear that I am not saying I am not saying that this is a mindset issue. I want to be very clear. Right, yeah, you got it.
Can you say more about that is why I'm very clear throughout this conversation that what we are up against are systems of oppression. What we are up against are systems, make huge—okay, first of all, I thought—well, just take, a little interlude for a second. I am realizing that I was raised to believe that governments were meant to care for their people that they were serving. I was raised to believe the people that, quote, we voted into office We were electing to literally take care of us as citizens. Again, I'm talking about someone raised in the so-called United States and really indoctrinated in U. S. Imperialism. So what I'm saying is to—now, you're so cute. What I'm saying is, this isn't a mindset issue. This is a systemic issue.
That, plays out in multiple levels of our experience of the world, one of them is, When it comes to asking people for money, Yeah, we need to understand the complications behind all of this. We need to understand how these systems sneakily teach us to see everything as transaction. And then it—seek extraction. That's the mindset part. Sure, we could call that mindset. But unfortunately, the business development industry and some of the big holistic therapy influencers have taken the language of mindset and used it to buy pass and ignore all these other realities that INFORM the mindset in the first place. And it's not a mindset issue, it's in our bodies. You can't separate the body and mind.
And so, capitalism, white supremacy culture, racism, transphobia, all of the -isms, ableism, colonialism. They're moving through us. We it's what we were raised in. In any part of the world, you're exposed to it, and so I want us to understand that this isn't just, If you can recognize that you're doing this, that you can change everything. Because that's not what that is Thanks for asking. Cool. Yeah, and I know some of you aren't in the United States. And are also reckoning. With the -isms. Yeah, thank you, thank you for those of you who are active in the chat box. The question, because that got me going. Okay. Are going to keep us going. So relational marketing,
#[27:47] Relational marketing and discernment
Tristan Katz:
And hopefully you can read this okay. If the color contrast is off, you let me know in the chat box. Relational marketing invites us into asking, rather than, how can I change my mindset, or how can I speak to people's suffering in a way that they'll then pay me money as if I can help them alleviate their suffering, and maybe we can alleviate suffering, but, also suffering is, as far as the Buddha taught, a part of natural human life. So, I think it might be true. How do I help people discern? If I'm for them. Given that money is hard. Given that time. Is hard to come by now. How many of us have the time to invest? In, things we actually want to do. Let alone the financial resources. So, we need to see our audience as people We need to see the visibility.
That we might create in our marketing as connection. It's not manipulation It's giving story and context To who you are and what you do. There's nothing wrong with that. It's beautiful. In fact, it's important. It's you contributing your work, your voice to the public ethers and conversation. It's so much bigger than, did you get somebody in your client? Load, or whatever. Because I can only imagine that a lot of us are, again, are here to make money, and we want to do so much more, we probably want people to hear., if you're sharing juicy bits, in the yoga class, as a yoga teacher., it shouldn't just be the 15 people in the class who hear that. How can you share that with more people? This is how we orient towards understanding how to be more in relational.
And to recognize that we earn trust over time. Trust is something we practice with each other. It's not just, something that you achieve. And so and trust is a big part of how we spend money. And who we choose to spend time with. So, metrics are important. They're good information. How many people liked it? How many people saved it? How many people opened the email? How many people clicked? Great. Good information. But not the, like focal point at the sale part is just one part of the relationship. I know for a fact there are people, and I hope there are people in this space now, who will never pay me a dollar. I hope that you're here. That's why this space is here. I want to make something for people who will never pay me.
Because I'm so passionate. It's so weird about marketing. I'm so passionate about wanting people to make more money more easefully so they can thrive. As much as possible, given the systems, given the reality that we're in. And to me, I want to serve you if you're going to pay me to coach you one-on-one. Or never pay me at all. So that's where marketing comes in. It can be a service. It can be about meeting people where they are Which is exactly what I'm always trying to do, And sometimes that looks like me saying, conscious marketing! It's not about selling! And then realizing that's not how to meet people where they are, actually.
Sometimes it's—I—,for example,—figuring out that my search engine optimization keywords will be better served with words like allyship. Versus equity inclusion facilitation. So this is a constant practice of trying to figure out how to meet people. People where they are. Which means that we can look at success as, are we connecting with people? Is it resonating? Are people telling us? Even with one like? Are they responding to an email, thank you for this? That means something. Don't overlook it. Which means, too, that personal sharing is a trust-building tool. But I want to make sure that we understand. That there's personal sharing that needs to be done with our therapist, if you are fortunate enough to have one.
With your best friend, your partner, your dog whatever. And then there's personal sharing that we can do in front of people we don't know. And so that's a discernment practice. But the personal sharing is an important ingredient to personalizing who we are in what we are. Actually trying to get paid for. And this also means we need to give people clear notices., I mean as much information as you can possibly think of. Which is why I'm constantly, telling people about now, this is what you can expect. From this space We're going to do this, and we're going to do this, and we're going to do this. That information helps people make more informed decisions. When they'd spend their money. Choose what to do with their time. So, for example,
#[33:37] Clear information and meeting people where they are
Tristan Katz:
Let's just say I'm—Anna—Anna Mitra, can I—use your teacher training as an example, awesome, thank you so much. So Anna, I know, personally, because Anna invited me to be on the faculty of the teacher training, yoga teacher training, But, a non-traditional one. And people were interested. And Anna was marketing it., I saw it. Mentioned multiple times in multiple spaces. At the studio, outside the studio, on the internet, in the newsletter Anna was ticking all the boxes. Gave people plenty of information. And, the sign-ups weren't enough!
Sign-ups weren't enough, people needed—scholarships at a way that it wasn't going to work, and then—the minute Anna said, from what I understand, I can't run this program sustainably, given the way it's unfolding with registration, then people were, I was going to sign up, though. So, I'm not saying Anna did anything wrong. Neither did I when I marketed my conscious marketing, it's not about selling workshop. Five or six people. Signed up Sometimes we can check all the boxes. And it doesn't mean that we did anything wrong. We're dealing with a lot of complex pieces, including time and money, and people's choices. And collective overwhelm. So, I want us to get curious, about what, quote, isn't working. So that we can figure out how to meet people where they're at.
More effectively. Because that's all we're trying to do, is, create the container, the service to meet people where they are at I didn't get paid for it. But we can't I can't say I'm going to put together this thousand-hour online training and charge 10 grand. And I'm going to get 20 people, because is that realistic? Do people have the time for a 1,000 hour, or whatever I just said, online training?, most of us are not, yeah, sign me up for, as long of a training as possible now. A lot of us are trying to survive, like—So, I just want us to understand that we need to center the wholeness. Of the humanity in our audience. And what that also means is—building trust, again, it's like a slow burn.
It's like a slow-cooked—oatmeal We need to, in between what we're selling, In between our, launch timelines, or our offer whatever, let's say it's a teacher training, I want to see, and I'm just going to use Anna again, and Anna and I have known each other for a long time. So, I want to see Anna talking about all the things that make her—her a unique yoga teacher. All the time. When she's promoting the teacher training or not. And I also, by the way, I'm just going to say this too, because I haven't had a chance, Anna, to say it to you directly, and that'll stop making you the spot person, but—I want to see Anna think, how could I create—a similar experience?
That I wanted to create originally in the teacher training in a way that Maybe it's more accessible for people, given the complexities. Maybe it's not a teacher training. Maybe it's not a 2-300 hour commitment. Either way. As we figure out what our offers are that we are marketing, I want us to be building trust with people without pitching anything. And that way, when we are sharing the offer, we can be clear, specific, and honest. And — and would say all the things, Here are the payment plans. Here's what you can expect from this, here's what you can expect from this. It's almost like the more content And the more transparency you can give to people about what to expect, the more they'll understand what it is you're offering.
Which means talking about your stuff, over and over and over again in different ways. Is a really good thing. And after you launch, or sell or registration closes after you're not — Let's say you're a therapist, and you're looking for new clients one-on-one. And you fill your time. You figured it out, all the client spaces; you have no more clients space. Now you have a waitlist. And so, you don't need to mark it! Your space for new clients. But in between and after you're done filling your client list, I want you to keep showing up with your work, caring for people, whether or not they buy. That way, The next time 3 clients leave at once unexpectedly because life happens — There's less need for you to re- it up.
This, strategy and visibility Because you've just been doing it consistently enough to build trust over time. And that means that — Not every message that we share with people needs to be a conversion. Not every message that we share with people needs to be liked, saved, shared, or converted into a purchase. It's so much bigger than that. So, when we're taught urgency, And, funnels. And manipulation and performance, we really, really need more honesty service. Consistency, and clarity. So, yes, the mindset piece, if — Again, I'm just mocking the — I'm mocking the language because it's so problematic. But I do want us to reframe that marketing, yes, we do need to get paid. It needs to be — we need to make money. That's the point.
And it's also about building visibility in who you are,
#[40:28] Pricing is not charging your worth
Tristan Katz:
And what you do. Which means we have to, educate people. Because we likely do things differently. Then, the yoga teacher down the block at the other studio. Which means you have to tell me, educate me. What is it that you do differently also educate me, because I might not ever afford to come to your yoga class. Maybe I live in another country, but I see your yoga stuff, or your mental health content, And it impacts me! And then maybe I do say to, Sally, hey, Sally, you are in Portland, go take — so-and-so's class, go work with so-and-so This is relationship! This is how it works. So, I want to say this too, and I want to be sensitive to time. Oh my god, I'm talking so much. Oh my god, I had no idea I've been talking for so long. I'm so sorry. Funny, I'm on slide 7.
I'm going to wrap this up. Pricing is not about charging your worth. Okay? Get that out of our head. You cannot be, — reduced to a number. As a human being. This is about charging in a way that leaves you feeling, in the words of a business coach, Lena West, whole — and compensated. That's going to look a lot of different ways. Which is why I run this space. Because showing up once a month to apparently yap for 45 minutes about marketing leaves me feeling whole and compensated, whether or not anybody pays me. Because I love it, clearly, which is why I can go on and on and on. So, I want us to — release the notion that every view, or follow is a potential client.
I want us to understand that some people are never going to pay us for our work, And we might want to reach them anyway. I want us to understand that marketing is — a sales tool, yes, and It is so much more than that. Again, building trust and our expertise over time. It means we don't have always have to look for something new to share. And we can release attachment to the numbers and the metrics. Because everything is — There's no wrong way. So, I understand that repetition is hard. That we might face the fear of being too much. That maybe we've internalized pressure to be original.
We're perfect, as if — to be an expert in something, meaning to be skilled, in your area of expertise, so much so that we can trust you, for what you say you do in your work Expertise doesn't mean everything. You're a human being. There's a lot I don't know. And I'm not trying to show up otherwise on the internet. And I know that our culture emphasizes new, new, new, new! I don't want new, new, new, new, new, new. I want us to understand that oftentimes it's about — recognizing what's already — in front of us. And sharing it again in a different way. So, I know that many of us have been taught, don't take up space and I also know that repetition can mean more visibility. Which means more vulnerability.
And for some of us, it can feel unsafe, or actually be unsafe, to move into visibility in our work. And I also recognize that many of us are just trying to find our voice. And in our — in our marketing in a way that is, really tricky. This is all very hard and vulnerable. I'm not going to pretend that it's not. Here are some takeaways. I feel like I've just dropped, a whole bunch of, like — heavy stuff, and so I'm just acknowledging that. Maybe you do feel lighter. I hope you do feel lighter. We're going to help you feel lighter in the next 40 minutes, I promise. Because I want you to leave feeling resourced in some way Hopeful. Because the — there's good news, there's so much good news here. Transaction isn't the enemy. You deserve to get paid.
For your work in the world. We live in capitalism. You have to get paid. For your labor. Extraction is the problem. So, when we approach marketing from understanding, Where am I sneakily being influenced by the transaction And instead say — How can I approach this from a more relational — perspective. That'll help give people the tools they need To discern more easily if you are the person they want to spend their time and money with. If somebody's pressuring me to buy, I am not going to feel —, I want to. So, clear invitations aren't manipulative when they're honest about what you're doing, and the results And when they're consensual, when it's grounded, in something real, rather than something that's fake. And your work needs to be findable.
That's what this is about But your personhood, your person, your humanness is not what's for sale. When we repeat ourselves — We are building trust. So you are allowed to say the thing, especially when it's true.
#[46:40] Group conversation: relationship, structure, and starting again
Tristan Katz:
And again, it's not about selling! That was true! I'm not — Saying I fucked up we're going to figure out more effective language. That's just what's going to happen as we learn So you're allowed to say what's true for you, as it to be true, and you're allowed to do it more than once. Because the goal is not to show up perfectly, the goal is to stay in relationship With your work. The people you're serving. Values, your practice whatever you might want to call it, and yourself. And, why you got into the work you're doing in the first place. I'm going to open it up now for questions and conversation. I do want to say that there, if you're, now, what the fuck? Have to be everywhere, or where should I be? Or what does this actually look like in practice, though?
There are so many free resources on my website. I am — Occasionally removing some, because there's so many, but these three that are still live on my website, these are, the ones I would recommend. After today's conversation. Because one of them is going to help you look at your marketing ecosystem, where you are, And how you take your content and put it in more places. One of them is going to help you — well, both of these are going to help you look at your marketing ecosystem, and then the other is, how to work with more content. Hopefully these are supportive. You let me know. I'm going to open it up and stop. Sharing my slides and stop. Monologue. And — if you have questions, questions, that you're clear about, great! If they're about this conversation, Great.
If they're not — Great. If you're not sure what your question is — But you have something you want to accept. Express and maybe get me to — ramble on? I'm here for that, too. So, I just want to open it up. The next 40 minutes are all yours. Use me. Use the time This is the best part, because — I did my job. I brought my slides, I told you what you were getting into with this. I said, I'm going to talk for this long, and look, I talked for 50 minutes. So, — It's your turn if you want my help, if you want — to talk about anything related to business or marketing and get some perspective, get some — Clarity gets some support on a challenge you're facing, now's the time. And if nobody has anything, then I'm going to be, great, I'm going to go work in the backyard.
And we'll all have 40 minutes back in our lives I can jump in real quick. I want to just — name how much I relate to — the idea of just — doing things to build relationship. It's really the first time that I've ever — heard of that concept in terms of marketing. It's always the — the countdown, the — you have to do this, and then you have to do this, and you have to do this, and it's all so very — structured?
And my work is not structured, my work is very human, and so — that's why I think I'm just continuing to be drawn to what you offer us, which is — that we're building relationship when — I don't love social media to post, because it does feel vulnerable, and I don't know what to say, but if I when I think about it from, here's this thought, or this something — that feels real, It's easier to share it. So, thank you. I'm really glad to hear that, Anne. I keep thinking lately, especially, that — Thank you, Anne Thompson. Another Anne for being here again. It was good to see you.
— I keep thinking lately that — Look, and Anne — Abby, you heard me recently give the, overview of the history of marketing and a few slides, recently, I gave that kind of spiel in another workshop. But the thing I want to say now is there was a time on Instagram Especially let's just talk about Instagram. There was a time on Instagram where, — polished graphics, and like — just posting, I don't know, I don't know. A handstand photo with your class schedule for a yoga teacher, or — the workshop graphic. Hell, 2020! 2021, it was easy to, for many of us, to say, I have a virtual workshop, do you want to come? And people would sign up! We have seen different eras. Of marketing. And people's — the way people are — responding to marketing.
And there was a Don Draper era in the 1950s, 60s with Mad Men. Which I'm currently rewatching, so sorry for the fucking white patriarchal reference. But that was a moment where advertising and marketing looked a certain way. And then there was another moment when it started taking off on the internet. And it looked a certain way. And then there was another moment when it looked a certain way. Now we're in a very different moment, where if you show me — that you're trying? Put on a show? I'm more likely to be skeptical. I am, personally. And I think a lot of us are. And, — the next piece of all of this, to your point, Anne, is that I keep thinking of, early internet — blogging, social media days?, if you had a live journal, if you had a humbler.
Tumblr is the thing I keep thinking of the most. We are now, I would argue, in our Tumblr era. Of marketing. Where the more — quirky — random but important to you? Things you can express? Publicly for people to see? I know, it's so weird. It's so weird, but, you did it on Tumblr. Just now do it on Instagram, Substack, your newsletter And I know I'm not saying now you got to do it everywhere. There's strategy to that. To make it easier for you to be in multiple spaces but the point is to bring that kind of authentic, creative — how can we move from that and what we share? Rather than, fuck, I got to get people into this workshop. Here's the workshop again, here's the workshop again, here's the workshop again, here's the workshop again That doesn't work.
Thanks, Anne, for what you shared. Yeah, and yeah, to the point in the chat box, it's like — Yeah, if Tumblr is a reference point for you, just think of that. That doesn't mean you, — What was the action on Tumblr? It doesn't mean you re — post. It doesn't mean you — take other people's content, put it on your group. Grid, because let me tell you, Instagram doesn't like it anymore when we do that. It needs to be original. So, think of your Instagram or your newsletter even, but it's a different flavor. So think of these spaces, too. Spaces are different. Instagram? Social media. Highlight social — and media. One might say networking. But, LinkedIn? Different Tumblr kind of energy Different kind of Tumblr blog.
If we're going to keep using the Tumblr metaphor Your newsletter, different kind of Tumblr blog. But it's still Tumblr! I hope those of you in this space get the Tumblr reference. Because I just went off on it for a while. Okay, I'm going to stop. — Kristen Please. Claudette, can you speak to starting over? I am a chronic starter and stopper. I sort of make an entry And I post for a little bit, and they sometimes get some traction, and that feels good. And then, I don't know, ADHD, perimenopause Yeah. I don't know, whatever it is, brain injury, any of those things could be the reason why I stop. And then I sort of disappear for a while. Newsletter, Instagram, in all the places Yep. Yep.
Then I start again, and again, do a little bit of something, have some consistency for a little while, and then fall back and stop
#[56:15] Making marketing easier and sustainable
Tristan Katz:
And then have to restart. So I feel like I'm in this constant pattern of stopping and starting and stopping and starting, and Hmm. And I just What works for me is having a framework, something that I can sort of, hook into to say, okay, this — on this date, I'm going to work on X, Y, and Z, and then I'm going to post on this date, and then I — yeah. Yep. That's what I'm saying. So having a structure helps. I'm just trying to figure out how to, yet again start again. Thank you for sharing, Claudette. Thank you for moving in and bringing your voice into this space. First, I would just want to acknowledge that, there is so much Me Too energy happening in the chat box now. So — this is a common experience.
We could think about our theories, why we could, in our own time, get curious about it., yeah, as Claudette named, maybe there's all these factors maybe ADHD. For example, I'm just saying, might be a part of the experience. And here is my — I hope this is helpful. This response that I have. I know that you didn't sign up to market your work when you decided to pursue your profession. I know that you also didn't sign up to do your taxes. When you came into this world. Or when you started your business. So — for some people — They have to get somebody else to do their taxes. Otherwise, it's not going to get done. Now, or it's not a good use of their time. Because they need to be showing up for this thing, and not their taxes. Well, your marketing might be like your taxes.
Where either, maybe it's a, I just need to get it done kind of thing, and I've got some solutions, or — thoughts around that, which I'll tease apart in a minute. But it might be a, I need somebody else to help me do it. Because I can't — I can't stay on top of it, for whatever reason. And that, I need someone to help me do it, is, okay, so what kind of support? What would that look like? What would help you? Do you need someone to do it for you? There are people out there who will make content for you. — Do you need — I don't know, if you are using AI? I'm not saying have AI make your content for you, that's a bad idea, because it — makes bad content. But, if you are using AI, there are ways to use AI to make your marketing work so much easier.
While keeping your voice intact, while keeping it yours, while not making it look like everybody else's. There are so many ways to seek help and support for systems, coaching all of that. Ask me if you need anything, I will help figure out how to meet you where you are with your budget. In a way that helps you move things forward. The thing I want to offer is this. If it's me, and I think I can't possibly think about when to do my taxes next. Only when it, like — feels like I want to do my taxes. Well, then I'm going to put it on my calendar. And I'm going to say — Just like I would, hey, on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, I deal with my email inbox. Well, then maybe there's, Tuesday and Thursday, this is what I do then.
And it's, I have — I say this because I have trained my body now. To need to market my work every day. Day. In some way. It's like the first thing I do in the morning when I get to my desk. Is I check some sort of marketing task. Off my list. I tend to my marketing in some way, shape, or form. Every. Single. Day when I get to my desk. First thing. And that way, I'm, great, it's done, I usually have some creative energy at that point, I usually have something I want to say. If I don't, I'll find it from something else, I'll put it together, maybe it already exists. But if you can come up with, okay, on these days — I sit down, and it looks like this, it's 20 minutes. Put on a timer. Figure out the next easiest thing to do.
It's often much less complicated than we're going to make it. That's why we — this is all very scary and vulnerable. And so we're likely to overcomplicate when things are scary and vulnerable and money is behind it, and financial uncertainty is behind it, and when we overcomplicate it, we might set ourselves up for a strategy that is not actually effective for our brains. What's going to help you get it? Done. It doesn't have to look like anybody else. In terms of how you do it. You could just write notes in a notes app on your phone. And then screenshot! One of those notes And that's your social media post, and then you take the text from that note, And that goes into your newsletter. I want us to make it so easy.
It doesn't have to be all the — Canva templates and whatever, whatever. Claudette, I don't know how that lands, but what I am suggesting is, for some people, it's, Every day, at this time of day, this much time. That's what I have to do to get it done. For some people, it's, Friday? For 2 hours. I'm going to look for next week. I'm going to say, what do I want to share next week? And for two hours, I'm going to block off time to just me. And strategize for the coming week. When I — if this is helpful too, when I help a client do, a content sprint, where, I make all the content. For the individual, for, several weeks, so that they can see how I would approach their marketing, and then — Hopefully they have templates and packages and endless content to use from there.
I'm doing this with someone now, so I'm — It's new. And what I'm realizing is, I have on Mondays, block out. Couple hours every Monday, to think about what I need to share for this client. And make it. All the graphics, all the captions. That way, I can send them to the client, and the client can tell me, This is good, this is good, change this, and I can start putting it out that week So how can we create a strategy and a system that actually works for us to get it done like we do our emails. And how can we not overcomplicate it? Is that helpful? Great, I'm so glad, Claudette. And again, if you are an AI, I'm not — AI is fucking complicated. I'm not trying to ignore that. I'm not, will turn everything into AI! That I'm saying.
What I am saying, though, is that it's the reality of our world. It's not —, it's not like if you personally any one of us. It's not like if I don't use it. It's now going to stop existing. I'm sorry, we're way past that point. It's everywhere. It's everywhere, it's all over Canva now. It's in Squarespace! It's in Netflix!, it's everywhere. It's in Google. It's in my Google Docs. And yet, you can opt out — I'm sorry, was somebody trying to share something? I was just saying it's in Google Docs. It was annoying me yesterday as I was trying to get some work done. It is. It's everywhere. And you can turn it off in some ways. But what I am — a big fan of is having some critical conversations about how we can use it to make our lives easier as entrepreneurs.
Because it is a huge task. To show up for the work you do. And the taxes and the email inbox, and the marketing, and all this other shit. So, if we can use AI in strategic — One might say conscious ways. I think we can get a lot done and make it easier for ourselves to do it, and make the visibility thing a little bit easier. So, if that's something you want me to talk about in a future Conscious Marketing Club, you let me know. I see a thumbs up. Yeah. I'm, fuck, I don't — that's the other thing, though, is that talking about AI on the internet is really sticky now, and I don't want to be like — We're going to talk about ChatGPT! Come join Conscious Marketing Club, where we're going to spend a whole 90 minutes on ChatGPT., that sounds dangerous.
That's — I'm going to be attacked. And that's real. So I'm just naming the complexities of all of this. — But I'm going to think about that. Any other questions or needs? Where do we start Like It depends. But —, are you starting a business from scratch? Are you already in business? Where are you in business? Where are you — Already on the internet. All of these things might influence my response, and what I will say is start wherever you — You can. If that's putting a website together, great. If that's putting a newsletter together, great. If that's putting an Instagram, page together, and I don't care how big the step is. It could be this big. It might be, purchasing the website domain name. Or creating the Google folder with a Google Doc.
And the three ideas that you have., start wherever you — can. Don't overcomplicate it. Small steps. Because every small step, when we're — think about building a new muscle. So, I don't immediately pick up the fucking, excuse me huge — wait, I can't do that. I have to start small. And I — it wears out easily. So but maybe in 6 months, I'll have more capacity. And then I'll lift big weights And I'll launch my website, or I'll launch my signature training program, or whatever the metaphor is, but start with a small weight. Wherever you can. Some — for some people, it might be creating the website, it might be launching a newsletter, it might be putting themselves out on Substack. Maybe it's your first post on Instagram. Anywhere. Is that helpful, Patricia? Thank you. Good.
Anybody else? Yes, hi, I have a question. Hi, my name is Anjanae. I am struggling with navigating pricing. Can you talk more about how to engage with that? Because I'm in this place of trying to be, I know I'm in the area where clients can't really afford my rates, but my rates are already like very below like the market rate. But trying to figure out, I'm, okay, I can meet their needs with like free content
#[01:08:42] Pricing, accessibility, and business models
Tristan Katz:
Yep. But it's really kind of hard to figure that out. I don't know. Other bigger creators will say, I heard one person say I don't price above this amount, and it's very low, and it's, you have to do that to meet the needs of your clients, and then supplement your income other ways. And I'm, I like that, but that also takes a lot of capacity to do that when I'm also one of those people who starts and stops, starts and stops. So. Do you have anything to say around that? So much. Thank you for your question. I can't tell you how many times I hear from people — I want my work to be accessible. People tell me that they want to work with me, but they can't afford me. Pricing is — complicated, and it is, so you're not alone, first of all.
So much so that actually, and part of the reason I'm laughing is because Brooke Monaghan and I are co-facilitating a workshop on August 7th, I'll open — we're going to open registration soon. The workshop is about, Creating a business model. And equity. So, to me, this conversation is a business model conversation. And what I mean when I say business model, because nobody taught me. Until more recently, which was Brooke. We need to think about our offers. Our offers, their pricing, The structure of them, how many people, all of that math. That literally makes me want to leave my body. Is really important. When thinking about how we charge things. And how to meet people where they are.
So, — and to the Lena West quote that I referenced earlier, sometimes this is a — do I feel whole and compensated? Question But I feel like practicing whole and compensated as a pricing, — process, or — ideology or whatever, is, we can't get there until we understand our business model. And when I say business model, again, I'm trying to talk about this, vague thing of, how many people can we actually serve per — year. How are we going to meet them? Given that some of them can pay us — once a month, $100. Some of them can pay us once a week. Some of them cannot pay us ever, some of them et cetera, et cetera. But I want to keep making my worth. More accessible. To more people.
I want to serve people who can pay me the big bucks, and I want to serve people who can't, and I want to give scholarships, and I want to give — sliding scale pricing. Well, the only way I can do that — is if I get really clear that, — When I do this kind of work, It's this much. Which means I'm not going to be able to do that work with everybody. For example, Not everyone is going to — pay me to make their website. Some people can't afford. Hire someone to make their website. But I want to help you anyways. How can we do that? Is it one strategy session? If so — What could you afford? I usually charge this. Is that something that you can do for one strategy session? Payment plans?
Et cetera I want to make it accessible, but that strategy session is, the thing I came up with. To meet people at different places. Some people take that strategy session, And they say, great, now I have everything I need. I'll reach out to you with questions. Some people take that strategy session and say, great, this was really helpful, will you do it all for me? Some people reach out to me and don't say, can I have a strategy session? No, they say, can you help me with this project? And I have, over time, figured out that the easiest way to meet every single person, almost, that I interact with is, let's start with a 90-minute conversation. I don't care what we're doing. That's, now my new M. O. How long did it take me to figure that out? Almost 10 years.
So, I'm not saying you're, oh, I'm going to create the perfect offer structure, and everything's going to work, and I'll have the pricing figured out. This is not — that's not how it works. We try different things, and then we change them, because people change, and — how we spend time and money changes, and — capacity changes. So the point to me is, we need to think about Simply put. How we can help people who are DIYing it. They're doing it themselves, whatever it is. Are you a yoga teacher? They're practiced on their own. Are you a therapist? Well, This person can't access therapy now, so they're doing it on their own. We need to help people who are DIYing it Doing it themselves. We also need to help people.
Who want you to do it with them., be in the room with — for the yoga class. Or the therapy session. Or the website strategy. Or maybe the website execution It's, we need to be able to create pathways for people to hire us to do it with them. That's a different price point. Tells a different time commitment. Then there's the other price point. Which is, I do it for you. And that's, I — I — one-on-one yoga. We — Where I'm with you, and it is all about you. One-on-one private session, therapy. Or maybe it's group therapy, but it's, I'm doing it with you. There's a different level of access. Higher price point. Some people will never be able to afford it. Some people, you're going to figure out how to make it accessible for them with your sliding scale or scholarships.
But it's easier to do sliding scale and scholarships when you have these offers in place to meet people at different capacities, financially. Time-wise, an interest in support And you helping them with the need that they're having. Does that make sense? Anjanette? Cool. Okay. Yeah, because, for example, Conscious Marketing Club, this space, It's one of my free offers! I had to figure out, though, how to do it in a way that felt sustainable for me. Which means, how can I show up? How often? For free? How much labor am I going to do ahead of time? How much time do I need to do to prepare for it? Am I going to make slides every time? How much labor does that take? Okay, but it's free, so — What's the goal here?
Well, I want to serve people, I also want to get in front of more people. To me, this was, a great way to do that. Both things at the same time. It is a free offer. It's also excellent marketing. Because people come into this space, and then they say, Can I have a strategy session with you? Or, can I come to this workshop with you and Brooke on business models and pricing for equity And we start developing a long-term, more long-term — Relationship. That I want to sub — that's — that's what I'm asking. After And so this — sometimes creating free entry points. But also think about your marketing as that free entry point. Your podcast your newsletter, your sub stack. Your YouTube channel, whatever it is. That is a free — offer for people who may be DIY it.
It's also good marketing So, our offers And our marketing, and our positioning? And our pricing! Are all part of the business modeling process, and let's just call it framework. Again, nobody ever taught me this. And I've been in entrepreneurship spaces my whole life. So I just want to normalize that, it's confusing, for a reason. And I, in the follow-up email, I will share the link to — when Brooke and I — In the follow-up email, I will share a link to an interest list, so that you can be notified. Of when we would open registration for the business modeling workshop. Again, it'll be August 7th. Okay, any other questions? Hi, I can use the internet. I'm Bernie, that's Elliott, and I really appreciate all of this.
I came to the last one and I've since started a facilitator's playground. I'm a facilitator and do applied improv.
#[01:18:50] Content pillars, client language, and SEO
Tristan Katz:
Yeah. What I appreciate about your strategy is that you are very vibe based. And so to your point, somebody comes, gets to know you and says, I want to work with you for that reason. I'm the same way. And so now I'm in creative accelerator and we're talking about the different types of stories. So kind of going back to the Tumblr strategy, I can be a little weirdo and like be myself, but like Sure. To differentiate like the — and I'm reading because I don't know how to do any of this, the value story, the founder story, purpose story, customer story, and when to like how to define those, and then like when and what areas to push them out in. Mmm. So what I hear when I say — say those again, which story, the story, the story, and the story?
Value story founder story Purpose story and then customer story Where did you — come up with those words. They were in a workbook they give us. Great. — Maybe it's a useful tool. Dealing with a way of how you think about it? Maybe it's not. So, what I hear when I hear those words and step back actually is that they're kind of all the same. Like — What's her why? And what's — your client's why what I mean? — Now, what I also hear, though, is that way in might be a framework that helps you create content. And to meet certain purposes. That can be helpful. In which case, I would just come up with, like — and maybe this is — this is kind of, it could be a content pillars conversation., you could easily take those prompts, your customers this — I'm sorry.
I don't mean to mock it, your values — you're this, you're that, you're this. Now, this could easily be your content pillars. That you rotate through., you create — you create content responding to this prompt, for this audience, for this prompt, for that audience, and then every Monday you share something that's your values. That fits in the values bucket. And every month in your newsletter, you make sure to share something that fits in this bucket. Where you figure out which buckets need to go where. Where you start a plan where on social media, you mix up the — content buckets. Does this make sense? Does it feel — supportive. I have a very, aversive response.
To — client avatar — type conversations, which I feel like this is — kind of connecting with, if that makes sense? Why? Is it because it's that pathologizing thing you were saying? It feels pathologizing, it feels like it doesn't recognize the complexity of our humanness. And also, in my experience, when I extrapolate from the people I work with, and do, a client avatar approach. I can't actually speak their language. It, takes me out of — the relational piece. And makes them more into a metric. Then I'm trying to reach. Attention that I'm trying to manipulate. And so, for example, Abby is in the space, we recently worked on a website project together. Why am I bringing this up?
Because — If I said to myself, I want to get a website client, And I want it to be a therapist. That's who I want to work with next. And I went onto the internet, and I thought, I'm going to think about therapists. Therapists how am I really going to reach Anne? Is that going to help me? Or is it going to be, I'm going to think of a therapist I know? Who maybe I'm in relationship with. Who I know does similar work to the people that I want to work with. And I'm going to think about what they're experiencing by name., oh, my friend Sarah's a therapist. Yeah, queer-affirming. I want to work with a queer-affirming therapist. I want to build a queer-affirming therapist website. Great. So I'm going to think about Sarah. What is Sarah experiencing?
Now, I actually — there isn't a Sarah. Like — and I would rather name the people And, 3 of them. And this is a practice I learned from Brooke Monaghan. She has what she calls the five questions. And I'll put them in the follow-up email. But to me, the five questions, like — are so much more effective than, client avatar. Tools or frameworks. And the five questions, I'm going to put them in the chat box. The first one is — Five questions for Brooke. Who is the person, and what are they experiencing? You have to name that., I don't care if, let's say, it's Sarah. The therapist, my friend, who is — now I'm putting into this thought process that I'm having about how to reach Sarah. As if Sarah is the person I'm trying to reach. Well, — What is Sarah's language?
For her experience Now, I know that my language is — I don't know. Again, equity, inclusion, and blah blah blah. Or, even, user experience. Focused website design But Sarah's not on the internet going user-experience-focused website design or equity inclusion facilitation. Sarah's on the internet going, I need websites for therapists. So, but, then beyond that — Okay, so if I figured out how Sarah would describe it, how would — Joe describe it. Sure! We could call that client Avatar work. But I think it's more effective when we think about the people we're already in a relationship with, The language they use, what they think they need to do to solve their experience, how we might address that, what we know about it that they don't know.
What do they really need to know These 5 questions, to me, guide me into speaking to my ideal clients in a way more effective — Bye, Anna, thank you for being here. Way more effective, way in than, putting people in buckets, we can isolate people into categories of client avatars. Does that make sense? That's really helpful. Good. And I'm not saying that framework isn't useful. It could be really helpful for — content creation. To me, those are writing prompts, which could inform all kinds of content. But then I'd want to think strategically about — where am I sharing what to reach who? And not, where am I sharing what to reach the therapist versus where am I sharing what to reach the yoga teacher? Because they're probably both having the same experience. Yeah.
That I can help with. What is that? It's not, — even necessarily, oh, I need a website. Maybe it's, I need to start my business and I don't know where to begin, or — and that's why thinking of 3 to 5 people would be really helpful. Because if we can think about 3 to 5 people and what they're experiencing And sometimes our clients are literally telling us this. And we just need to listen. Because when I hear over and over and over again, I want to make my work accessible, and people keep telling me they want to work with me, but they can't afford to, what do I do? I'm, oh, that fits into this. Five-question situation. It's their language. How do I meet that need? Well, come to my Conscious Marketing, it's not about selling workshop that's what I thought.
He was, no, try again. That's not actually meeting their need. The need is, I need to get paid for my work. Great, let's find another way in what I mean? Does this make sense? We are at time. I feel, awkward. Ending on — this note for some reason. I think it has to do with me feeling vulnerable about critiquing a framework that might be helpful for you. And so I just want to acknowledge again, okay. I — I — okay. Like what you said about it's about the why is where I was struggling because I'm, I know I have like belonging to innovation pipeline underneath everything I do. And so, I just focus on that. And that's why it was distracting for me. So I can do the assignment, but I do ultimately agree with what you're saying completely. Great. Cool.
Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, I have done the client avatar ideal mapping stuff., I — I wasn't trained in it, but I've been a part of it, and no matter how many times I see those — directions or tools being used, they never seem to do what we want them to do, in my experience. Because we're missing something, which is the relational complexity of all of this. So, thank you. We're asking that, really. And thanks for being here, both of you. It's nice to see two people on camera, and I appreciate how you two have engaged in the chat box. Okay, you all, we're at time. Thank you for coming. I will send this out, probably today, with some other things that might be helpful. I'm taking July off. From this space. That will resume in August, so stay tuned.
And I'll send a link for that — link for that in the follow-up, too.
#[01:28:55] Closing
Tristan Katz:
Okay, if you can, when you get off this Zoom meeting, go do something else away from the computer. Drink some water But, look out the window while you do it., not at your emails. Or put your feet in grass, or in the bathtub, or I don't know what it is. Do something to care for yourself. You don't have to do anything with this information now. Just let it — sell Okay. Take good care, I'll look forward to seeing you again soon. I hope. Be well. Bye, you all. Thanks, Anne.